People…have you heard? There’s a movement afoot to put Christ back in Xmas.
Now, I say – “Keep X in Xmas!” (The only reason I put Christmas in the title of this post is that it ranks better than Xmas. Christ must have one hell of an SEO package!)
Savior Engine Optimization
God knows, it’s not kosher to mention God these days (yah, I said it!).
I mean, it’s a secular world right? Afterall, kids these days think Santa was one of the three wise men. And baby Jesus? One of Santa’s elves…
So, in the name of secularism (say that 5 times fast), I say let’s put X not only in Christmas, but in all instances where God or a deity would heretofore (I learned that word from Stephen Colbert) have been mentioned.
For example:
Marlon Brando will henceforth be known for his penultimate role as the Xfather (I’ve even created a new, secular friendly logo)
Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Saturn, Mercury – named for ancient gods – will now be collectively known as Planet X.
And, probably the best part, is now when you are really angry and need to vent, you can exclaim in all your guilt free glory “X-DAMNIT!!”
But in the meantime, if the mere thought of the word Christ or Christmas elicits such contempt in you that you feel the need to X it out of existence, take another look at that Google report – you’re outnumbered 67 to 1!
Do you know why we put up lights at this time of year? It’s to celebrate the coming of the light – December 21 is the 1st day of winter and hence the shortest day of the year. The following day, days get longer again and light begins to return to the world. Now what do you think is a better image to celebrate that feeling of hope for the future, Christmas or X?
I think by now, you’ll understand which term I choose to use. And if you haven;t figured it out yet…
Merry Christmas
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Wow! This blog was amazing. I love it. Lol at Xfather
Melissa Snow´s last blog ..MelissaSnow56: Plains holiday forecast white Christmas tough traveling Columbia …: A winter storm system moving across the W.. http://bit.ly/4AzdfU
Thanks Melissa. If you haven’t guessed, I’m a fan of Stephen Colbert!
- Don
Lovely post Don.
I hate it when people put Xmas. The symbol for an unknown quatity is X. What, do people not know that the reason for the season is Christ.
I do not shop at shops that have Xmas signs. That’s just me.
Merry Christmas
Robert Bravery´s last blog ..How would you promote your blog?
Thanks for your comment Robert!
When I was a kid (let’s say 30 years ago), you NEVER saw Xmas signs referring to Christmas.
And you know, I can understand that Christmas is not applicable to everyone and all faiths, I get that and I respect that, but what I don’t get is why we (society – or parts of society) have chosen simply to X out the Christ part…
I mean are people that concerned about saving ink? Is it simpler to pronounce X as opposed to Christ?
Like I said, I just don’t get the motivation for the X!
I see Chuck lasker has left some comments as well, see more of my reply there.
Thanks again Robert, for stopping by!
- Don
Like most things extremist American Christians get all up in arms about and offended by, Xmas is completely legitimate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas
The X is for the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of Χριστός, which is Christ in Greek.
However, being a non-Christian, and having been burned by extremist Christians many many many times in the past, if using an X in Xmas keeps those fanatics from doing business with me, then I’m all for it! Maybe, when Christians put the fish or cross in their ads, us non-Christians can just put an X to let people know we are NOT Christian!
Chuck Lasker´s last blog ..Deck The Sites, a Christmas Font Song
Hey Chuck,
Being extreme is just another way for being totally committed or dedicated. Can I call you an American Extremist.
I completely undestand the Greek representation of X. But here your mixing Two languages , Greek and English.
Using X as the Greek representation because it is a Greek representation of Christ cannot be justified because other names or words use the same. If you use that logic, then it should be Xristmas, should it not. Seeing that X is the First letter of Christ, not the Whole name or word.
For me I just see it as an common abbreviation and crossing the name of Christ out because it is of no importance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma-algebra
I am sorry that you have been burned by other Christians before. But surely you’ve been burned by non-christians as well. Christians are not perfect, they are merley sinners like everyone else. SO I do not know why you would single them out above any one else. Perhaps you expected more of them. I can fully accept that.
I pray that God would send someone your way that will show His true love and character.
My main point is what is the reason for the Season, is it not Christ. If people are so against Christians and Christ. Then Don’t celebrate Christmas, don’t share in the Joy to all men. Don’t share in the love and giving spirit.
Robert Bravery´s last blog ..How would you promote your blog?
Robert,
“Being extreme is just another way for being totally committed or dedicated” – well, then you’ve just defended Al-Qaida, right?
My point about Christians is that they used their Christianity as a way to try to gain quick trust, then screwed me. I have concluded that when someone brings up their Christianity to me in a business setting, it’s a good idea to walk away. On the other hand, my best friend was a pastor (he passed away a month ago), so it’s not all Christians I distrust. Additionally, Christians who won’t do business with businesses that have an Xmas sign annoy me because they WILL buy from Japanese and Chinese companies all day long to save a buck.
When I say extremist, I mean Christians who push their views on others, consider themselves completely right about everything, seek out “sinners” to condemn, etc. In other words, they use their Christianity as a weapon, and spend their time and effort on trying to force-change others instead of on changing themselves.
I think you’re being overly sensitive about the X in Xmas. It’s not crossing Christ out. However, the true reason for the season is not Christ, as he was born in the Summer because that’s when the census was taken. The reason for THIS season is the winter solstice. Even the word Yule refers to a pagan celebration. Decorating trees? Pagan. Gift giving? Pagan. Christmas was just a way to coopt a pagan ritual during Constantinople’s reign of forced Christianity.
Chuck Lasker´s last blog ..Deck The Sites, a Christmas Font Song
Hey Chuck,
I do not want to get into a mud slinging match, so don’t take this comment as such. But would just like to reply to you.
My statement about extremest did not mention that all extremists are right. Many are wring, as you so rightfully point out. But, being an extremist is not by and of itself wrong.
You are absolutely correct about the history of the Time that Christmas takes place. That’s a completely different argument. One that we can discus all day. In fact I get a lot of slack from other Christians when I mention that Christmas is in fact not Christian in origin. But the fact remains that it has changed since then and has been known throughout history as the collaborative day of Christ’s birth.
I can only apologise on behalf of Christianity for those people who did you harm. I totally agree that Christians should not use their Christianity under false pretence. Christianity is about Christ not us
In fact I have no problem with striking the season of Christmas and celebrating another day.
My point is that just because I take a certain stance to be a witness of Christ at this time does not mean that I am bad or evil or wicked. IT just means that I have a believe. I have nothing against a shop that has a Xmas sign. But just take the opportunity to be a witness. There are loads of other ways I do similar throughout the year.
I am truly truly sorry that you were burnt by Christians. I do not know what to say. Obvously you have a wall up when it comes to Christianity. I hope that I do not add to that, and pray that your anger towards me as a Christian will subside.
I would love to get to know you better, and have some meaning full chats, about anything. But if my Christianity is a hindrance to you then I cannot do anything about that.
Merry Christmas
Robert Bravery´s last blog ..Use a blog contest to drive traffic and boost your blog.
You know – I really enjoy a rational discussion about the difference of opinion. People can disagree rationally and without malice – I did a philosophy degree in university so I have a profound respect for rational discourse…
The trouble is, most (all?) religion is NOT based on strict reason – it is based on belief and faith. Objectively, there is no room for faith or belief in a strict, rational discourse – tautology (the foundation of rational argument) is based upon a statement of a premise backed up by facts that lead to a logical conclusion. Once faith enters the picture, all bets are off – in other words it is no longer a strict tautology (rational arument).
Now, that being said – I have no problem with any of that. It simply means that faith is faith and it cannot be PROVEN (and therfore it cannot/should not be forced on anyone). There is no strict OBJECTIVE truth in ANY religion – there is only FAITH that what one believes is indeed true.
As for me, I was born and raised a Catholic (due to my Mom’s upbringing) but my Dad encouraged us kids (I am the youngest of 8!) to question EVERYTHING – including our faith.
All of my family have remained Christians (myself included) but none of us are practising Catholics anymore.
Strict belief in religion or religious conventions have become less and less important to me over the years (much to my Mother’s chagrin) but I still find it a little disrespectful when I see ‘X’ instead of Christ. I mean, I just don’t see the reason why someone would go to the trouble of changing convention from Christ to X unless they had some clear motivation for doing so.
That being said, my sister routinely (and I’m pretty sure without thinking about it too much) writes Merry Xmas on her Christmas cards and I suppose I’m not really bothered by it because I know where she’s coming from and I know her sentiment of goodwill is more important than the words she chooses to express them.
So, what’s my point of writing keep X in Christmas? Well, although I am probably more like Chuck than Robert when it comes to religion, I still feel that at least Christ’s name should be respected and preserved – even from those who are non Christians and non believers. I would never dream of co-opting another person’s faith with my abbreviatred symbols just because it is “more convenient” or whatever.
So, in any event, Merry Christmas!
- Don
Robert;
Funny you should mention algebra. Did you know that many of the words like algebra, alchemy (ie: early math and science) beginning with a-l are Muslim words (and inventions) referencing Allah as the creator?
Maybe Christians should start referring to xgebra or xchemy (just joking!).
- Don
Thanks Chuck for your comment.
Interesting wikipedia article. I had no idea about the X in Greek thing.
And if you were a conspiracy theorist you might be really concerned with the fact that Christ was often referred to as “XP”. Coincidence? Hmmmm…
Hahah!
I’ll reply some more to the next set of comments from you and Robert a little further down.
Thanks again for commenting Chuck!
- Don
Thanks Don for pointing me over here. Some great dialogue going on. I love it! I wonder if Robert and Chuck will ever have that conversation? Would love to be a fly on the wall if they did
Like I said over at mine, a large part of the problem is that Chuck has been hurt by the fire and brimstone crew and I don’t believe that’s Jesus’ selling point. He chose carrots over sticks every time
The church has done an awful lot to tarnish Jesus’ reputation over the last 2000 years. Have you heard what Mahatma Gandhi said about Jesus and Christians?
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Sad really.
El
Eleanor Edwards´s last blog ..How to Bottle What Makes Your Soul Sing
Eleanor,
You are absolutely correct. SO many so called Christians have done more harm than good. But you and I can do nothing about that. We have to trust God that He builds His Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
I do believe that you should not push your faith and belief onto anytone. But God does require us to stand up for the truth and make no bones about that. Even Jesus called the Scribes a generation of vipers. Yet at the same time he went to console and visit the Tax collectors, Prostitutes, beggars.
There is a vast difference between standing up for what you believe, standing up for the truth and Bible bashing, forcing your belief onto someone.
I do believe in Fire and Brimstone, Jesus did. He preached it. THe bible teaches it. Wouldn’t you warn people if you knuew of an impending earthquake or tsunami.
But the Bible and Jesus is not all about Fire and Brimstone. There are so many other truths that can be and should be taught. Jesus, although He Preached on fire and brimstone, never harped on that subject. He taught many other truths that are critical for our daily lives as well.
It is sad, that when people get hurt by religion that they quickly blame God, and do not see that it is man that is the problem not God. It’s like me saying all Americans (Choose your country) are bad because I have had a run in with a few bad Americans.
Not all Christians are fanatics and hell bent.
I would have loved have had that chat with Chuck. Get to know him better, get him to know me better. But the ball is in his court. I do not want to force the situation.
Robert Bravery´s last blog ..Does Your Blog Tell a Story?
Hey Robert!
I’m so glad you are still subscribed to these comments and joining in on the conversation again!
I’m reminded by your ‘fire and brimstone’ comment of a scene from Jesus Christ Superstar where Jesus “freaks out” when the temple is overrun with money changers and he goes around flipping over tables and breaking things up.
Talk about a call to action!
An angry Jesus is not usually the picture we envision of Jesus – but you are right – at the end of the day he had a tough message – why? Because he shone the spotlight back on US and OUR ACTIONS when he said “Faith without works, is DEAD!”.
I was born and raised a Christian and perhaps Christ was the Son of God, I don’t know. But I have respect for anyone, anything and any faith or non denominational thinking as long as it can get you, as Joni Mitchell so beautifully put it, “back to the garden”!
Cheers!
- Don
Hey Eleanor!
Thanks for jumping over here – a month after Christmas – hahah!
Great Ghandi quote. In fact I was reiterating tat exact sentiment just today when I read about more than one “Christian” preacher blaming the earthquakes in Haiti – and in fact the Haitians themselves – on the notio that they made a pact with the devil to gain their freedom from the French…
Did these so called Christians ever actually read a little thing called THE NEW TESTAMENT?
- Don
Eleanor,
It was not the “fire and brimstone crew” that was the problem. The problem is I WAS one of the fire and brimstone crew. I was as right wing of a Baptist as there is. The problem was I spent all those years playing mind games with myself to keep myself from seeing reality – that the Bible is full of contradictions, that the god(s) portrayed by Christianity is hateful and evil, and that, if “you shall know them by their fruits,” there are pretty much no Christians anywhere.
http://home.earthlink.net/~owl233/biblequotes.htm
The idea that a god would create humanity as flawed, knowing all would commit sin (fall from grace), then to create a system of eternal punishment for those who sin (everyone), unless each person hears about Jesus and believes he’s their savior while knowing only a small portion of his created beings would do so, and therefore created billions of souls that will suffer for eternity in fire so he can be friends with a few million, is horrible.
If you wanted companionship, as god supposedly created man for, would you breed a litter of dogs if you knew that 8 out of 10 of them would be horribly disfigured and would be in pain their entire lives? Just so you could have the other 2 as companions? Clearly that’s a disgusting thought and someone would be evil to do so. So why is god different to do that with man?
Robert – your Christianity is not a hindrance to my conversing with you, being your friend. I have many “Christian” friends (my best friend was a pastor – he just passed away), but I got to know them before knowing they were Christians because it didn’t come up for a long time. I don’t have a problem with all Christians. But I’ve had enough problems that I default to not trusting anyone that professes their Christianity, so it is just more difficult. Like the assumption that the black guy with 15 huge chains around his neck, hat sideways, pants on the ground, and gold teeth is going to speak ebonics – it’s just a good assumption even though not always true.
Chuck Lasker´s last blog ..Deck The Sites, a Christmas Font Song
Gary,
I am truly sorry that you have such a warped and incorrect idea of God. Many in my opinion are way out of context, including a lot of quoted verses.
Why do we question God, if not for our own edification.
Many want God after their own making and do not accept that we are the sinners not God, and that God is Sovereign.
I would be honoured to be friends with you. You obviously are hurting a lot, so I will not add to that pain. But will leave the door open for chat, discussion, questions and help if you ever need to. Send me an email, DM me, what ever, I will be there for you.
Robert Bravery´s last blog ..The funny side of blogging
Who’s Gary, Robert? Did you mean me?
You say “we are the sinners,” but why is that the case? If your belief system is correct, then your god made us that way. We have no choice – if we did, then some would choose not to sin. Or, you might say it’s because of Adam and Eve, but that’s no different, in my opinion, because god still would have created a system that guarantees all humans will deserve hell, and most would go there. That’s just sick – to create beings KNOWING they will suffer for all eternity in a pit of fire. Who cares if they “deserve” it? Just knowing that suffering could have been avoided by not creating man in the first place, but creating man anyway, is simply evil.
I’d like to read your answer, Robert, about my puppy analogy. Would you breed a litter of dogs if you knew that 8 out of 10 of them would be horribly disfigured and would be in pain their entire lives, just so you could have the other 2 as companions?
Chuck Lasker´s last blog ..Deck The Sites, a Christmas Font Song
Yeah, Chick sorry that was me messed up. Meant for you.
This blog and post is way to short to try to debate or explain how or why God does or does not do things. It is also way beyond my mortal intelligence to explain why God does what he does. I cannot possible know the full mind of God. No one can.
The problem is that we tend to bring God down to our level expecting to mould Him into something that we can understand and control. Thereby making God a mortal man so that we might understand and find fault. In doing so we can find some relief and blame someone else for our condition rather than looking inward to find that we have ourselves to blame
Why does a Seemingly innocent baby die, when a rapist and murderer lives. Why then does God allow evil to persist. This I cannot answer, and neither can anyone else. Why, because we are not God.
Can one explain and understand and grasp what eternity is? Can you or I transcend time and space and matter. Can we be in every place at the same time, yet give all attention to one specific person in a specific point in time and space. Can we see the future and change it?
Can we command nature and defy the very laws of nature? Can we create the magnificence of space and give life?
The obvious answer is no. If so then why on earth do we suppose we can know why, what or how God does things. IF we cannot do what HE does, how can we begin to try to rationalise what He does, or even take on the responsibility of creation.
To take you puppy analogy. Yes I would breed them. Because for the fact that I can make them perfectly whole again should the puppies choose to accept the cure.
And just before you go and off half cocked and say why on earth did I breed them disfigured, my answer would be that I did not. I allowed the natural cause of nature to take place in that the disfigurement was genetically inherited. AS a result of thousands of years of bad breeding contrary to my strict commands not to do so. Should I then be held responsible for disobedience.
Go has revealed a part of himself to us. To reveal any more would be too much, so much so that we could not handle it.
And yes we do have a choice. We choose to serve Him or Not to serve Him. Choosing not to serve God, does not mean that made that way. It just proves that he gave us free will. Would we be having this debate if God made bunch or Robotic people who had no choice nor will but were programmed to only do certain things. Hardly human.
God did not create sin. He is not the author or sin. But man kind does have a choice. We choose to lie or not to lie. We choose to steal or kill or rape. We choose to disobey. We choose to hate. We choose anger, we choose deception. But along with choice comes responsibility. The problem is that no one likes the responsibility. They want to do what they want with no responsibility. That just does not work.
I sense that you have an extreme hatred for God. Probably because of something that someone has done to you, or to someone that you loved. Perhaps it is because God never answered a deep prayer of yours. Perhaps it’s none of these. What ever it might be. I am deeply sorry and have no idea how I might even begin to change your perception.
But know this, and I believe it with all my heart, is that God love you and I despite ourselves. The question is do we and can we love Him back for who He is?
Robert Bravery´s last blog ..The funny side of blogging
I have no “hatred for God,” as you put it. Because I do not believe the god that you believe in exists. I believe there is an intelligence behind creation – making me a Deist – but I don’t believe the bible is anything other than fiction, that Jesus was anything other than a man, that there are three gods that are one (somehow), and especially that Jesus died and then came back as a zombie for three days to “pay for our sins.”
The “god” I believe in does not hate, does not create sinful beings then punish them for sinning, does not demand worship and submission, does not torture billions of souls for eternity out of a sense of “right and wrong,” and does not speak to humanity through 2000 year old books of questionable origin. The intelligence I believe in doesn’t need to send a son to die for our sins – because there is no sin, there is only insanity, stupidity, misunderstandings and weakness. We are a weak, selfish, conflicted species.
The breeding puppies thing – what if you KNEW that 8 out of 10 of the puppies would not “accept the cure,” that they would be in severe pain for their entire lives? You’d still breed them because knowing the 8 would not accept the cure would alleviate your guilt over creating them in the first place?
I don’t have to know why a god does certain things, nor do I have to come up with “we can’t know” mysticism and excuses. My faith is not based on mind games and self-delusion and convincing myself that I’m too stupid to understand the very person I believe is trying to get me to believe in him.
If your god exists and did set up the Christian system of hell and heaven, then, regardless of why he did it, I would certainly hate him for being so evil. There is no valid reason to create a system where billions would suffer for eternity in a pit of hell. Not even one I can’t understand.
So no, I don’t “hate god.” I hate the Christian view of a god. I hate Christianity as an organized religion because of the evil that it has wrought. And I hate when Christians try to force their rules on me, even though I’m not a believer and am apparently destined for hell anyway.
Chuck Lasker´s last blog ..Deck The Sites, a Christmas Font Song
Interesting points you have there on the character of God.
My question then is. If you were a Holy Sovereign Just God, who despised sin and saw sin as totally disobedience to you, no matter what that sin is. When you see the total depravity of man. How would you punish sin? And what would the credentials be to enter into heaven?
Robert Bravery´s last blog ..The funny side of blogging
Why do Christians always avoid the hard questions, but expect others to answer their questions? In the hundreds of online debates I’ve had, if I ask 3 questions in a post, the Christian will always ignore the ones they don’t want to answer. And the ones they answer they do with Bible-speak.
But I’ll answer your question, Robert. If I was a the entity you describe, I would be disgustingly self-centered and evil, so I’d set up the heaven and hell scenario of the bible and smile as I . And if that is reality, then I can’t wait to go to hell to be as far away from an entity that creates billions of souls knowing he’ll send the vast majority of them to eternal fire.
However, you’ve missed all of my points so far. If there is a god that created everything, then he created sin, he created “right and wrong,” he created man so weak that man MUST sin, he created a pit of fire to punish people for eternity, with no hope of learning from the punishment. If that’s the case, he’s an evil, disgusting entity. So your question is difficult for me to answer because it assumes something I find evil. But I don’t think whatever being created us is evil – at least I hope not.
Chuck Lasker´s last blog ..Deck The Sites, a Christmas Font Song
Chuck,
I did not ignore any questions, I simply posed another question in answer to all your questions.
How would you expect me to answer a question when you believe that God is evil. Any answer I put forward will not meat to your satisfaction therefore it become pointless.
IF We do not answer the Bible with so called “Bible-Speak” How else would we answer it. After all my faith is based on the Bible. Your belief in an evil god is based on anger.
God did not create sin. He is perfect and without sin. God created a condition of free will. It is man who chose to sin.
If I leave my car outside unlocked. It then gets stolen. Am I then the author of theft. Should I be blamed for someone else’s choice of stealing my car, just because I created a condition that lead to that. I neither caused the theft nor am I responsible for the theft. No, the accountability is the thief. He had a choice, steal or not steal.
Just because man chooses to sin, does not mean that we should negate in our accountability in trying to blame God for that very sin we choose to do.
It seems that you do not have a genuine question about God, but just seek to ague and fight. It seems to me that your questions are not born out of genuine concern or a genuine need to know the truth.
Your continue bombardment that God is Evil, with out considering any other alternative.
The mere fact that God is God eliminates that He could be evil, because He is God. If God is Evil, then he is no longer God. Therefore the God that you so aptly describe as evil cannot exist. For evil is not and can never be an attribute of a being that is God.
Hell was not created for man. In fact the Bible clearly states that Hell was created for the Devil and his angles.
Man was created in perfection with a free will. He exercised that free will and must live with the consequences. Surely you can recognise that and agree with it.
Why is it that we do not want to be accountable for our own sin. Why is it that we choose the easiest way out, and blame God or some other entity.
No it was me that killed the women. The devil or God made me do it. Why, because God created me and it is His fault that I killed that girl.
Surely you do not believe that,
What is evil anyway? Can you capture it in a test tube and measure it. Can you taste it. No evil is the absence of Good. God created Good. God never created no good. He said at the end of create it is Good.
The same logic is applied to light and dark. What is darkness. Well clearly it is the absence of light. What is Cold. It is the absence of heat. Evil therefore is the absence of Good. So clearly God did not create evil.
I do not want this debate to be a try to prove or disprove that God exist or not. Because clearly that cannot be done.
But what I will do is try my best to answer genuine questions and a longing to find the truth. Now I might not have all the answers. I know I do not have all the answers.
Faith in God is just that. It is faith. If you do not have faith, then there is nothing that I can do to change that. Only God himself can restore your faith.
My suggestion is to stop focusing on the negativity. Get rid of the anger. Don’t blame God. Blame man, blame the person that hurt you, blame me. But give God a chance. Don’t be so angry towards Him. God has no desire that any should perish. He love you He loves me.
I challenge you to ask God to show himself to you. If he exists He will I guarantee it. If He does not exist, then you have nothing to loose and you win.
Robert Bravery´s last blog ..The funny side of blogging
Hi guys
I go away for a few days and come back to find an enormous debate raging. I suspect that I’ll be shot down in an instant by both Robert and Chuck for being so naive but there is way too much stuff in the bible that either I haven’t read or I don’t understand so I just focus on the bit I can understand and that’s that we are told that God is love.
I agree with Chuck that lots of the old testament portrays God as being this scary figure and I could never understand why God appears to have a personality transplant by the time the second half comes round.
I remember reading somewhere that a big problem for the folks in the old testament is that they didn’t have the benefit of seeing God through Jesus-tinted glasses. As a result, they were scared of God. They were told that He loved them but they couldn’t understand it.
Then Jesus comes along and as much as you talk about Jesus paying the price for sin, I believe it’s more than that. It was only by doing what He did on the cross that God could prove that that was how much He loved you and me.
To answer the analogy about the puppies, I have to say Robert that I totally agree with Chuck. It sounds horribly unfair to allow 8 puppies to come into being knowing that they would choose not to get mended. For me, the answer ‘well God is God’ just isn’t good enough. Taking the example of the puppies, if getting the 8 puppies healed depended entirely on the likes of me or you, if I loved the puppies that much, I wouldn’t just rely on me doing a good job, I’d have a back up plan.
God doesn’t haven’t the same restrictions of time and place that we do. If I were God, I wouldn’t leave the task of spreading His love to humans. Look at the mess the church has got itself into! God knows when someone is going to die. I can’t back this up with bible verses (which I suspect won’t be good enough for you Robert but that’s unfortunate) but I personally believe that God uses His mastery over time to give everyone one more chance.
I heard the story of a man who was dying. He was slipping away and as he was doing so, remembered a line from an old Sunday school song. At that instant he accepted his need for Jesus. However, he was worried about dying because his Christian mother wouldn’t know that he’d met Jesus and she’d think he’s gone downstairs. So instead of dying, the doctors revived him, he told his mum that he’s come to know Jesus and went on to tell loads of other people about Jesus.
That story is why I believe in second chances and the love of God. I do not believe in scaring people into heaven with your scary God Chuck. I believe in loving everyone to the best of my ability, empowered by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I believe that I can love people on God’s behalf and that He can and does use every tiny little seed to show folks that He loves them.
Have either of you gents read ‘The Shack’? It has given me this picture of how relationship is meant to be. It’s definitely worth a read. The book that led to me reading The Shack though is a book called ‘He Loves Me’ by Wayne Jacobson. You can get a copy for free of his website if you fancy reading it. It’s at http://www.lifestream.org and if you hover over ‘Books and Audio’ followed by ‘Wayne’s books’ you’ll see a link to ‘He Loves Me’. The 1st edition is available as a pdf file (and you don’t even have to leave your email address
)
Anyway, sorry this has got so long. Just my 2 cents worth
Eleanor
Eleanor Edwards´s last blog ..The Importance Of Good Parenting
Hey Eleanor!
Thanks for your return visit and your meaningful comment!
Here’s my perspective (summarized, of course):
I grew up in a Catholic home but my Dad who had become disillusioned with Catholicism and indeed ALL organized religion, advocated that we, his children, “question everything”, including his own advice…
Over time, my belief in and concept of a “personal God” was eroded by my logical brian “questioning everything” and finding many inconsistencies and contradictions in the traditional understanding of God and Jesus…
I’d love to think that there is a caring God who somehow is invested in me…The very concept of “a Jesus”, as you have pointed out – makes that slightly more understandable (ie: Jesus is quite literally AND figuratively the “personification” of a caring, loving God…
But then this virgin birth myth gets in the way and all the corruptions of the simple messge of Christ and the whole “play” gets called into question for me…
So, now I guess I”m closer to being an agnostic – I just don’t know what’s out thre running the show and I deratinly don’t know how it operates if indeed there is an “IT” (ie: God).
I can live with the concept of “God works in mysterious ways” but I think if you accept that premise then it is at the same time very hard to really believe the concept of a God who loves me (and everyone else, for that matter) because “logically” the whole package just doen’t hold up to scrutiny when you look at the whole thing up close and when you start asking questions about it.
Since we don’t know the whole picture, religion and belief in God CANNOT, by definition hold up to LOGICAL scrutiny – and that is FINE – it just means what you are left with is BELIEF, not FACT, FAITH not FACT.
And for the rational mind, once you allow faith, you MUST BY DEFINITION allow for everything for there is no longer any “plank of truth” on which to base the rest iof your argument…
So where does that leave me? Well – I’m no longer intersted in “proving” or having others state unequivovally that “there is a God and He loves you”…and yet I still BELIEVE that there is some form of God running this whole show – I just have NO IDEA WHY!! And I don’t really CARE.
Which is why I don’t BLAME God for evil in the world (mankind himself must take responsiblity for that. Earthquakes – in my meme at least – are not EVIL…) But I also don’t expect a loving God intervening in my life or caring when I send him prayers that my team wins the cup…
Yah – that’s why agnostics are not often asked to Sunday sermon…
Belive if you want to believe, don’t believe if you don’t – but strive always for the TRUTH by weeding out the clearly untruthful things you encounter in life…How can we know the difference? I don’t know that either, I’m afraid but a quest for openminded knowledge and acceptance and understanding of folks different from us is a good first step….
Cheers and thanks!
- Don
Don Power´s last blog ..Then They Came For Me – a Cautionary Tale
Wow, what a conversation to follow. I’m glad you (Chuck and Robert in particular) are willing to engage about these issues – they’re as real as anything else.
Chuck, one thing you said stings me to my core and actually speaks directly to something I talked with a men’s group about yesterday. You said that when someone brings up their faith, you immediately get a certain feeling that it’s time to walk away from the situation (in a business sense).
I’m not arguing, just kind of astounded. You’re not the first person I’ve heard say such things. I think this ought to serve as a very humbling, convicting reality for Christians. We aren’t the best ambassadors sometimes, and that really needs to change.
I’ve heard others talk about how their “Christian employees” are the ones you can’t count on and even sometimes that they are “too heavenly minded for any earthly good.” Sad.
I just wanted to thank you, Chuck, for saying that honestly. It’s sobering and needs to bring us (Christians) to our knees.
And like Robert, I wish things were different in your mind and heart toward Christianity, but I understand your frustrations.
Brandon Cox´s last blog ..67 Ways to Get Your Content Into the Cloud
I’m glad you didn’t simply dismiss my comments about my feelings towards Christians, Brandon.
I was a strong Baptist for 10 years. I considered becoming a minister. I started The Church Referral Service (phone based, no need with the Internet today) and Christian Connection (a pre-Internet printed Christian business phone book) here in Indianapolis. Through that experience I dealt with over 400 pastors of all faiths, and hundreds of professing Christian business people.
Of the 400 pastors, I trusted 2 of them. Only 7 of them paid on time. Many never paid (we’re talking $50 a month for a church!). Of the Christian business people I dealt with, I found that the ones that wanted to profess their faith in advertising (fish symbol, cross, in Christian phone book), did so only as a way to hook Christians. Very few of them acted Christian-like. I was given bad checks, people blackmailed me (give me a free ad or I’ll tell these xx businesses not to advertise with you), and ultimately the general manager of the largest local Christian radio station who sponsored both entities told me I had to hire his nephew to run the phone book, or he would pull his sponsorship. That was my last straw and I simply gave Christian Connection to his nephew and walked away from both businesses.
It was another year or so until I finally stopped attending church, stopped believing. When my family didn’t show up to church for a few weeks after years of loyal attendance, the only contact we got from our “friends” was the pastor’s wife calling my wife to tell her she needed to return the hymnal my wife had at home.
If “you shall know them by their fruits” has any meaning, then there are maybe a million or so Christians on the planet. Although maybe it meant the fruits would be hatred, lies, scams, selfishness, judging others, and trying to force non-believers to follow rules set for believers.
Deciding to leave was very freeing. I realized I had been playing all kinds of mental tricks to cover up the contradictions and nonsensical stuff in the Bible. By allowing myself to question the very core of Christianity, I found I could not justify believing any longer.
The process was very much like what I’ve read about coming out of a cult. And really, the only difference between a cult and Christianity is cults are not mainstream.
Chuck Lasker´s last blog ..Deck The Sites, a Christmas Font Song
I was at a trade show last year and I was having a good conversation with a guy who was making a pretty good case for his preoducts and services…
Since we were getting along pretty well, I suppose I must have made some personal comment or something not strictly business related and within a sentence or two the guy asked me if I was “saved”.
Now I knew what that meant – on many levels. But the most pertinent level is that we were at a trade show – not a church – and no matter WHAT my faith or beliefs, this question was truly inappropriate…
I respect that people have such a strong belief in God that they are preapred to open themselves to “spreading the good news” . But for me., a “Christian agnostic” – I really don’t want the sales pitch – I’m figuring things out for myself based on a lifetime of consideration. And I certainly odon’t need a pitch to be “saved” at a trade show for technolgy gadgets…
the Bible says there is a time to real and a time to sow and I’m with Chuck – once someone tries to “sell me” on faith – I’m already gone.
Hahah – it just occuured to me (but you probably have considered this already Brandon since you are in both worlds) that folks wnating to “spread the faith” could learn a lot from the relationship selling techniques of social media (as opposed to “cold call” hard selling”)! So maybe Christ would be a trending tweeter after all – hahah!
I definitely like the idea of applying permission marketing to evangelism, for sure.
One thing to consider though. If you had a rare and deadly disease and I knew the cure, would you want me to wait for you to ask me for information, or should I respond to your need the moment I know about it?
It’s a fine line we walk between being push and being persuasive. There are a few people who definitely drop the gospel into a conversation with no relationship at all (which isn’t how Jesus handled it), but when only 5% of Christians have every even shared their faith with another person, I don’t think over-evangelizing is the problem on the whole.
I think Chuck is pretty respectful toward me as a Christian, but willing to express his disagreements. He’s taking a risk by telling me that he doesn’t believe in the God of the Bible. I might not like him. I might walk away. I wouldn’t do those things, but that’s the risk.
As a Christian, I face the same risk daily. When I think a person with whom I’ve built some relationship may be doomed eternally for hell by not having a relationship with Christ, should I keep quiet?
There aren’t any easy answers, for Christians or non-Christians. I struggle to know the balance daily.
Brandon Cox´s last blog ..67 Ways to Get Your Content Into the Cloud
I do not disrespect Christians who defend their faith. In fact, I prefer that to just saying “whatever” and moving on. Like you say, Brandon, if you really believe it, you are compelled to defend/spread it.
I like the non-aggressive approach to proselytizing… something like wearing a cross on your lapel, having a Bible on your desk, something that tells people, “I’m proud to be a Christian, so if you want to know anything about it, let me know.” In the Biblical sense, if the Holy Spirit is working on someone, you don’t have to be aggressive, just available. (Yep – I know the Bible inside and out as well as most arguments for and against just about everything Christian). Too bad it’s not true – I’d be a great pastor.
By the way, Brandon – my wife is still a Christian. My best friend is a Christian. I respect people having faith, I don’t respect shoving it down others’ throats. For the same reason, I never try to push people to believe what I believe – I just am happy to discuss what I believe. Of course, in my mind, if someone doesn’t believe what I believe, I don’t have to worry about my god being a vengeful psychopath who will burn them for eternity for not believing one specific religion out of thousands. LOL
Chuck Lasker´s last blog ..Deck The Sites, a Christmas Font Song
Oh, and Brandon, if the Bible is true, I’m still going to Heaven.
John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
If God promised me that I shall not perish, back when I believethed in him, then that promise means I shall not perish, even with becoming a non-believer. If he gave me everlasting life back then, then what’s done is done!
Chuck Lasker´s last blog ..Deck The Sites, a Christmas Font Song
Well, Brandon, with 4 billion people and counting, you’re going to be a very busy man
Once again – I agree with Chuck’s comment below – I believe (sort of) but I don’t want to push my beliefs on anyone nor do I want them to push their beliefs on me. (BTW – I don’t think anyone is doing that here!)
You know, of course, that those 4 billion non Christians have their own thoughts and beliefs about who will make it into heaven or whether there’s a heaven at all…
Who is to say who is right?
When it comes to faith (see my previous ontological assessment) there is no objective truth – only belief.
- Don
I must say, you guys (Don and Chuck) are quite interesting to interact with. I do agree about not being pushy, for sure. It’s one thing for the nature of the gospel to offend someone, but quite another for ME to personally offend them.
As for the idea of objective truth, I totally understand that there are a large variety of perspectives and beliefs, but are you absolutely sure that there can’t be anything that is absolutely true? Do you catch my drift? You’re saying (as objective truth) that there absolutely and definitely cannot be any objective truth. Therefore I am absolutely wrong to believe that there is, and you are absolutely right to believe that there isn’t, which is dependent upon the existence of some absolute standard.
I know we’ll not all convince each other – it’s an interesting triangle of beliefs we have here in fact – but I will say that with God removed from the picture as the ultimate authority, we are left with a world in the hands of a combination of chance and humanity. And that’s far more frightening to me than a world left in the hands of the God of the Bible.
Hey Brandon!
Dangerous (and effective) is the preacher who also understands logic (hahah!).
From the beginings of philosophy (not nearly as old as humanity of course – we had to have a “surplus” before we could contemplate anything other than our next meal – and that in itself took tens of thousands of years) people have been trying to establish what Spinoza eventaully dubbed the “plank of truth” on which everything else could be based.
The earlierst recorded philosopher, Anaximander, exclaimed “All is Water” in his relatively primitive attempt to explain reality and it’s fluidity and constant changes of “state” (ie: solid, liquid, vapour).
Descartes is famous (to philosophers and non philosophers alike) for his assertion that “I think, therefore I am” (which by the way I have always thought to be a premise based on opinion and not fact!).
So you are right – it is not easy for any philosopher to make any objective statement of fact unless BOTH parties in the argument can agree on at least ONE “objective” premise to their mutual satisfaction.
Believe it or not, Plato (and by extension Socrates) are the best examples from all of the philosophers I have studied whose message most closely resembles that of Christ (who came much later). They said (extreme reader’s digest version): We are particular examples (forms) of a UNIVERSAL truth (FORMS). In other words, there exist PERFECT iterations of everything – this is true reality. We exist in a world with “imperfect” iterations of perfection. Plato gave another more picturesque explanation of this in his “cave analogy”: We are shakled slaves in a cave and we can only see moving shadows on the wall in front of us and therefore we take this to be “what is real”. However, through a compulsion (which Plato deemed to be a quest for philosophical TRUTH) once can break the bonds and travel up the mouth of the cave to discover that there is a REAL world outside the cave what we THOUGHT to be real (ie: the shadows on the cave wall) are only shadows cast by real things moving about in the LIGHT of the SUN (ie: THE FORMS).
Plato also had it pegged right when he said that the enlightened freed slave, upon returning to the cave to tell others, is shunned because it is much harder to break the chains and ascend into the light than it is to just keep on toiling in the darkeness…
Right? There are MANY parallels to Christian doctrines (”take up your cross and follow me”, man is made in the “image” of God – we are spirit – HE is SPIRIT).
So why the lesson in Platonism?
Well, cause I really LIKE Plato’s “meme” (to use a contemporary word to describe an ancient philosophy) but more importantly to agree with your point about – what is an OBJECTIVE truth? – and how can my assertion that “belief is not an objective proof” be an objective proof?
If you live by the sword you must be prepared to die by the sword and so I submit that you are correct – I cannot assert an objective truth unless WE BOTH agree that it is an objective truth insofar as our brains and understanding will allow.
Many accused Aristotle, (a student of Plato and the founder of the scientific method as we know it today) of using LOGIC to generate ANY truth – and in a way I agree (this is now known as the “Aristotelean Predjudice” in philosophical circles).
So beware the logician (and that statistician apparently) because his words can be used to generate “truths”.
So where does this leave us?
Belief.
Now matter how you slice it, all roads lead to ancient Greece (hahah!).
- Don
I believe there is an objective truth – a reality that is so regardless of whether we believe it or not. I also believe there is a god of some sort – a central intelligence that created us and maintains us in some way, mainly due to a mathematical analysis of creation being a matter of chance. I believe there is an afterlife, if only because I have had many ghost experiences verified by double-blind experiments. So I do not fear death, I do not fear a life of no meaning.
I just don’t believe in the reality you believe in, Brandon. And I don’t believe god is the god of Christianity, because that is worse, in my opinion, than there not being a god at all. I feel the same about Islam because it, too, has a violent god. If there is a god that created the beauty of this existence, the power of our minds, and love, then that god MUST be a loving, forgiving, understanding god, not a vengeful god that punishes his creations for simply doing what we were created to do.
We are all capable of error, we are all capable of denying axioms due to presuppositions and bias. Reality, no matter what is consists of can be denied by the most brilliant and intellectual agents in the world. My contributing basic assumption is this: belief is more influential in the world of the free agent than reason and objectivity despite any contradictions and self proclamations. My point is…who will really be able to absolve everyone’s misconception of reality? who can change the mind of a convicted man? who can wrap their mind around the fullness of reality all at once to demonstrate the error of our way? As for me, I will trust in the God of the Bible to influence my beliefs.
Hey Phillip!
Well said! From your intricate turn of phrase I’d say you’ve had some experience in philosophical theory of some kind…
At the end of the day, you are right, the most logical among us can still cast doubt on our very existence…
So where does that leads us?
Belief!
Cheers and thanks for your comment. Do you have a website/blog or a Twitter account you’d like to link to from here?
- Don